Blythe Brumleve:
0:05
Welcome to another episode of everything is logistics, a podcast for the thinkers in freight. I'm your host Blythe Brumleve. And I'm honored to welcome in Admiral Craig Fowler. He's the board member over at pay cargo and one of the most accomplished guests that we've ever had the pleasure of speaking to. And before we bring them on, I just want to list a few of the career accomplishments. And so just running off of this list, a graduate of US Naval Academy with a bachelor's in System Engineering, Master's in national security affairs strategic planning, commanding officer deployed to the Arabian Gulf and participated in in maritime intersection operations in support of the United Nations sanctions against Iraq, commanding officer who assisted victims of the devastating tsunami of Indonesia, and senior military Assistant to the Secretary of Defense. And that is just the tip of the iceberg of the topic we're going to be discussing today. And that's regarding the logistics and supply chain challenges around the devastating earthquake that hit Turkey and Syria earlier this month. Actually, again, this week, they were were hit by another earthquake, and there aren't too many more people that are more qualified to talk about this topic. So Admiral, welcome into the show.
Craig Faller:
1:16
Thank you. It's an honor to be here. It is an important topic to talk about. People are working around the clock as we speak, saving lives. And it deserves to be discussed and understood and, and the successes of the relief operations embrace, but also understanding where where things could be improved as we move forward.
Blythe Brumleve:
1:35
100%. And before we get into sort of the specifics of Turkey and Syria, can you give us a sense of just the logistical operations in general, whenever a disaster like this strikes at you know, after a crisis occurs? Is there is there a normal quote unquote, normal response, logistically speaking,
Craig Faller:
1:57
every disaster is unique, the the organizations like the United Nations, and here the US US Aid Bureau of humanitarian aid assistance, work to try to prepare the US military involved in exercises and tabletop discussions, looking at where the disasters have occurred in the past, and how to best prepare for the future. So getting supplies and people and assessments, they're rapidly to the point of need is key. And of course, you're coming into an area that's lost all its infrastructure lost, the ability to communicate, cellphone towers are going to be down. So just the ability to, to connect people is very, very problematic. Roads will be washed out of or broken in the case of earthquake could fractured shattered bridges. And so all these things compound, the ability to get in and understand what needs to be done. But a lot of time is being spent by these organizations studying lessons learned of the past, so for the next time, and the next time after that, that could be more efficient and faster.
Blythe Brumleve:
3:10
And so when we're talking about establishing just on the ground of what happens, is there a general sense of of what you established within the first 2824 hours or the first week, compared to maybe a month out give us a sense of of what the immediate concerns are, versus the ongoing concerns,
Craig Faller:
3:30
maybe concerns will be the rescue, in looking for people trying to rescue people account for survivors in this particular example, 3 million people were impacted by the 7.8 magnitude earthquake, and about 1 million people, as of data as early as yesterday had been impacted in terms of lost homes or damaged homes. So that's an immense amount of people. So getting an accurate accounting of that is key. So the first phase is save lives through a rescue operation. And then the second phase is going to be to rebuild and established shelter, food, water, medical hygiene things so that there's not a continued loss of life from a disease or cholera, some kind of impacts of not having adequate sanitation. So those kind of the couple phases that you would be looking at so the disaster relief teams and countries involved are going to come in and establish Coordination Center, trying to fuse the information and get to ground truth as to what the teams know what they don't know. And then moving forward always with the host nation in this case, Turkey would have have a very developed organization for this Turkish turkeys and a member of NATO and they'll work with a host nation in the lead to try to look at what needs to be rebuilt in the long term efforts to recovery.
Blythe Brumleve:
4:57
So with with zeroing in on, on the The situation with Turkey and Syria, what does the I guess the logistical landscape look like for them before the disaster? I? What modes of transportation? Are they? Is it rail? Is it? Is it you know, the big cargo ships? Is it freight trucks? Is it a combination of the three give us a sense of what that logistical operation looked like before. And then we can kind of get into the challenges of what they're dealing with now,
Craig Faller:
5:23
looking at the terrain, and well, so I mentioned Turkey, but I also have to remind our listeners and everyone that Syria is a big part where this occurred in northern Syria, western part of Syria. So first of all, the terrain is very, very rough. So mountainous terrain, lots of roads, some poor roads, but a lot of roads that you would expect to see in a mountainous region, Turkey, much more developed infrastructure, more modern country, Syria has been really ravaged by a civil war for the past decade plus, so you have a very different set of infrastructure going in a lot of the local to the point of need, transportation is going to be ground, it's going to be trucks, it's going to be the kinds of things from small trucks to five ton trucks to bigger trucks, some rail, some air cargo, and some by sea, both countries have seaports. That becomes key for the follow on relief. All that infrastructure is damaged, destroyed, have an unknown condition initially. And that's a big part of the initial assessment, search and rescue efforts to figure out what's intact and what isn't. We mentioned in the introduction about my involvement in the Indonesia tsunami. So we were the first US responders, I was in command of the US warships, Shiloh, we were part of the Abraham Lincoln Strike Group, enjoying Christmas in Hong Kong. And we responded and arrived on scene on one January 2005. That was a 9.2 magnitude earthquake. But 200,000 People in Indonesia alone were killed. And the current earthquake about 7.8 magnitude today's death toll was tragically too high at 48,000. Any amount of loss of life is is just a travesty. But when we arrived in Indonesia, and at that point, in addition to helping survivors and looking at search and rescue, we were also looking at the infrastructure in what you just found was almost every bridge within a few miles of the coastline and roads were destroyed, or damaged or destroyed in some way. So we're looking for airfields, places by and helicopters, looking at soccer stadiums would be kind of kind of placing, all that in provision is now going on in, in in Syria and Turkey as folks try to rebuild and then respond and get to the logistics flowing to the point of need.
Blythe Brumleve:
7:53
And so as we as you had just mentioned, you know, tragically, you know, 48,000 people have have perished, you know that there's countless others that have been impacted loss of homes, loss of family members. And then there's also the actual infrastructure side of things, as you mentioned. So the earthquakes have destroyed roadways they've caused caused major power outages and created large scale damage to major ports in the Mediterranean, making it a logistical challenge to get much needed relief to the area. So when you're when an earthquake happens like that, is it the first sort of set of priorities is to address the infrastructure so you can get aid to folks more quickly? Or is it that a humanitarian efforts? Or is it a combination of the two?
Craig Faller:
8:37
Well, certainly you're looking at everything that you mentioned, to comes into play to move forward, the first response is going to be to save lives. So that's the search and rescue response finding where people trapped under rubble, where they might be trapped in a remote village, they can't communicate. That's the first effort in order to, to execute that effort. We've got to access these areas, whether it's in a city or in a mountainside. And so no one where the roads are intact, and where the bridges have to be, you have maybe have to go through a stream around the bridge, or maybe the only mode of transport will by a helicopter, or rotary wing of some type or some small light air transport. So that's all part of it. Because in order to get to all locations in the United Nations and Turkish authorities, I'm sure have a big chart on the wall with all sorts of markings and electronic charts and sharing data to know Have we accessed every house looked under every rubble in teams from the US specialized teams will be flown in with dogs and search and rescue experts. So that's the first priority is that saving lives, but in order to do that, you've got to really do a rapid assessment of the infrastructure that's involved.
Blythe Brumleve:
9:54
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Craig Faller:
10:56
a lot. So one of the thing about a disaster that just brings out the best of people. So a lot of nongovernmental organizations NGOs, so are going to step up world hope is an example of an organization stepping up these organizations, they step up, they come in and they help. And so somehow, somebody has to coordinate all that. So the UN steps up, their role is a coordination, US aid, BHA will play a coordinating role. People look to the host nation as the lead coordinator. A lot of effort is spent there. But there can be seams with all those organizations. And so people will work hard to bridge those seams. While the search and rescue is going on. People will be looking to say, Does this village have water? Yes, no? How's their shelter? What do they need? Do they for immediate needs to tarps tents, that kind of thing? What do they have any foods stuff? Or do they need that so there'll be things flowing in for that. And then medical supplies flowing in and different nations, over 50 nations have participated in the current relief efforts thus far. And understanding that logistics flow is so key, because you want if you need cooking oil, and water, and maybe rice and some basic substance, but what shows up is a load of clothing used clothing. And that's not what is needed, then that ends up clogging logistics node that we saw. In Indonesia, at times where a cargo was being offloaded, it wasn't what would been needed at that time. And so people are trying to do good, they want to rush supplies, it's really a lot of management effort going into ensuring the right supplies to get right to the right place. And you don't end up clogging those very fragile logistics pathways with things that aren't needed. And I know that efforts occurring. And people were looking hard at that in 2021 was the lead US military element for 7.2 earthquake in Haiti. So we think about the one that had 2010. But in 2021, in August 2012, big effort there. And that was a constantly trying to ensure that we did surprise ourselves with what was flowing in. And then what needed to get to the people was what was out there. The UN is their pros at us, they have really good staffs that do great work. But the scope of these these tragedies means that a lot of hands are needed in order to get things right.
Blythe Brumleve:
13:36
And so when you have sort of that, that just mass organization that's going on, what about the port infrastructure within Turkey? You know, I saw that there was a, you know, a fire at one of the pores that raged on for, you know, about five days, and they're not exactly sure what is caused the fire within, you know, all the containers that have been stacked in, you know, luckily they have put out that fire since then. But is the ports you? Are the ports usable? Is it is it I guess still efficient to work through the ports? Or do you just kind of back off the ports for a while while they theoretically and figuratively, you know, put out that fire and then reroute the goods somewhere else.
Craig Faller:
14:14
A lot of the assessments that need to be done to the level of infrastructure and the ports that you cite lies a really good example, require a teamwork. So there's so much that needs to be done. It's just not one agency or entity that can do it. So in a disaster like this, often the civilian agencies which will always lead will rely on military expertise, whether it's from NATO countries, the US or other nations to come in with assessment teams. So the US military in particular has poor assessment teams, that they are trained to come in the look at the bottom topography to make sure there's no change to the chartered depth which would be a danger to any cargo ships coming in. They look at the integrity of the piers the integrity of the mooring cleats and the bollards on the piers, do the piers have the cargo handling intact? Yes or no will it ships need to bring that in all those things are looked at. And then after that's done, and we check out the disk port, a port B and other port is the certified good. And that information is then passed off to the coordination centers. So that we can begin to schedule cargo ships and freight to come into those those seaports so that efforts ongoing in this particular case, back to my experience in Haiti, we had the same experience in 21, we had to get relief supplies, so roads going out onto the peninsula, they called the claw, the southern claw of Haiti. Very bad. And of course, there's rain, that magnitude the earthquake creating slides. And so bringing things in by sea became critical, but we weren't sure whether some of these, these peers had the integrity needed. So we'd had to send teams in there and do a quick check to ensure that they were sufficient and safer handling of all the equipment's, it's just so key. So there's a real big safety aspect to this.
Blythe Brumleve:
16:11
When I was working at a three PL years ago, we were the exclusive contract provider for the American Red Cross for all of their water loads. And so when Hurricane Sandy hit New York, this was a while ago. But we were responsible for all of those water loads. And it was very much an organizational effort between the private sector and the American Red Cross and a lot of the federal aid. And so it kind of sounds like a lot of that infrastructure exists or that I guess communication exists over in Turkey. Is it safe to say that maybe a lot of that doesn't exist in Syria?
Craig Faller:
16:46
I think Syria and Turkey are different situations based on the political leadership and the state of development of the country. To be fair, the epicenter was in Turkey. So there's been more impacted people, the numbers of about 350,000 displaced are out of their homes in Syria versus a million in Turkey. But there are more challenges in in Syria due to political situation and the ongoing civil war.
Blythe Brumleve:
17:17
So when with there was another video that I was watching and speaking of, of Haiti, and it was a company called Wendover Productions, which does a great logistics series, and it was talking about the logistics of, of disaster relief. And they say the reality is that often but not always, the more accessible a disaster site is, the more response it gets. And so because Haiti is relatively close to the US, it was very easy or easier, versus other situations where we could get that aid to Haiti more quickly, is that a safe assumption for for Turkey as well, where we have operations and landing points for, you know, to get that humanitarian aid to Turkey more quickly?
Craig Faller:
18:01
I think it's, it is a fact the accessibility and the, how adjacent is a country or tied into their neighbors. So it makes a big impact and looking at case a turkey, while that area is quite remote and very removed in the far reaches of the Mediterranean. Turkey is a NATO member, there are a lot of capable countries that have very developed, very well developed humanitarian assistance, disaster relief organizations and teams that have come to bear and are in the neighborhood, in proximity, compare and contrast that to Indonesia, or the Indian Ocean, where vast differences, diff distances between the different countries makes problematic one, the assessment just knowing how bad it is, is delay in days, not hours, and then getting supplies there takes days and weeks. This was a four day sale for us from Hong Kong to Indonesia. It's just immense. The distances of the Asia Pacific region. So I think the remoteness of the location, weather and the country and then the country's integration into other regional organizations or international organizations does play in.
Blythe Brumleve:
19:21
What about that gets the role of customs when it comes to these, you know, emergency shipments? Is it still sort of the same rules that apply? Or are they kind of, you know, eased up a little bit in order to expedite these shipments?
Craig Faller:
19:34
Well, it is if you're, you're asking really great questions. In a disaster, people tend to come together and more rapidly overcome the bureaucratic hurdles that just just are just so irritating and day to day life. I like to refer to things as blocking your own field goals, and things that could take weeks and months to get done in disaster. To get done, but it does you do point at some of the really larger challenges in the logistics business. I love the name of your podcast that everything is logistics in the military. In a 38 year career, we would say over and over again, logistics is for professionals, because it underpins everything we do. And as I transitioned from 38 years in military service and love the Navy loves the military is awesome. And looking for opportunities in the private sector to make a difference and translate some of my skills, I was astounded at the some of the level of backwardness of the logistics, systems and processes are out there. So still a lot of paper, a lot of faxes, a lot of scan in PDF files, a lot of wire transfers, it's so many disparate ways of doing things very hard to get asset, visibility, and accuracy of data. Now, in the midst of a response to the disaster, people were overcoming all those hurdles, but they do compound the challenges of the response and knowing where goods and services need to flow and go. And I think it underscores the urgency with which a lot of these challenges need to be streamlined, including the customs processes, which is where the question began.
Blythe Brumleve:
21:29
And it actually that brings up it's a good segue into my next question, because being a board member over at pay cargo, which is a digital, a global digital all in one payment platform for freight and cargo and the logistics industry, it was mentioned that outdated practices in supply chain are fueling the backlog in Turkey and Syria for for a regular civilian like myself what's going on in the payment side of things that is, you know, contributing or maybe inhibiting the disaster relief efforts over in Turkey and Syria.
Craig Faller:
22:00
So a bulk a large percentage of global payments, in, in, in all specifically focusing on air and sea freight cargo, still occur by wire transfer, or checks, or some mode of payment that most families here in the United States don't even use for their family budget anymore. Or maybe they just have one or two pieces or budget to kind of flip that around on the global scale. So that leads to delays and payment processing a lack of transfer of data. Now, in the case of a disaster, most people organizations come into this saying, Look, we're going to respond, and then we're going to worry about getting paid, but they still at some point have to get paid. And so reconciling that and overcoming that will be challenges. And then the efficiency of that process, the speed just takes just takes too long. And that's what as I was looking for opportunity to make a difference in in in a sector is so important. In the logistics sector, this opportunity to be an advisor on the advisory board of pay cargo came along, it just seemed at pay cargo is exactly the type of high speed, high tech, innovative company that's leading the way cutting edge to modernize and transform systems and processes in logistics region, an area that will speed things up and allow for more application of the data, more efficiency, people get paid on time and goods and serve goods move faster.
Blythe Brumleve:
23:40
And I would imagine that that is probably one of the more inefficient parts of Logistics is the lack of getting paid. And the lack of data is that a safe assumption? It's
Craig Faller:
23:49
really very good, safe assumption. So many cases, you can't get the cargo release till the payment happens and the payment takes days, weeks, not hours. Pay cargo offers a solution it takes really, so it's an instantaneous solution, the way they've the way they've applied the technology and the payment system.
Blythe Brumleve:
24:11
And now we've kind of you kind of mentioned, you know, everything is a little bit, you know, outdated or a lot of companies are a little outdated, you know, still using fax machines for God's sakes and you know, a lot of the transactions, you know, bills of ladings and payments or anything that in that regard, but on the data side of things, what does sort of the data collection process look like in Turkey right now or in Syria right now? I would imagine that it's very challenging to get the information on what goods are there what goods are in need. Tell us a little bit about the I guess the the data flow of what's going on in addition to the shipment flow.
Craig Faller:
24:48
Well, I do know this that talented people hard working people are are working day and night to try to make sure there are no seams and everybody has visibility and the data is exchanged. between the UN and the EU, USAID VHA. Turkish, so that's happening, I'll just relate it to my experience in Haiti and 2021. So it's very recent, we have set up a US military coordination center, and it's about 100 yards from a un Coordination Center, and is about a half a mile to the US a BHA Coordination Center, we had to physically shuttle people back and forth between those coordination centers in order to ensure an accurate exchange of data, not sure we can send me emails back and forth. But in terms of having a system where our data was entered, that inter acted seamlessly with another system and database, so that you didn't have to repopulate something to add the numbers back up. That didn't exist. This is 2021. This is in Haiti, which is right here in our neighborhood of the Western Hemisphere, and the UN who we know and work with, and USAID who is our US partner. We haven't evolved those systems to seamlessly share data so compound that in a to a multinational crisis, Syria and Turkey, lots of seams and data, people working real hard to do to shore that up. But it does point to the greater need to modernize the logistics systems and processes and be able to share data more readily. And across company, agency organization or country boundaries.
Blythe Brumleve:
26:38
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Craig Faller:
28:13
The thanks for mentioning the ongoing aftershocks so that they when I saw that yesterday, they had the aftershock, I went and looked how many they've had, they've had 2100 aftershocks. So I think the initial one was in the neighborhood of 7.8. Yesterday's was about 6.4. And it's horrifying to be on the ground. And then continuously feel this. I felt it in Haiti, I felt it in Indonesia, and you're oh my goodness, this is going to be another one. Here it comes again. And it just causes a wave of anxiety and panic in the in the people in the population, which is not what they need. They need stability and looking forward. That's what the relief organizations will try to do. They'll try to set in place longer term rebuilding plans saw yesterday the US pledged recently this week, US pledged some more rebuilding money for the kind of development rebuilding homes and infrastructure that needs to happen. international community will do that. It is a concern though, because while you want if you're the military and you're in support of civilian organizations with the unique capabilities of military brings heavy lift, transport, you don't want to be remain there for longer than you needed. You don't want to develop dependencies, people and you have to help people get back up on their own feet begin to care and take care of themselves. But if you leave too soon, and those plans aren't in place and the funds don't get to the right people, then it becomes problematic. We We responded in 2020 in November 2020 to two back to back major hurricanes and Central America, it was unprecedented outside the hurricane season, both category four hurricanes follow the same track. And that was one of the questions we kept asking, Okay, who were there, we had a number of helicopters that were Ford station for exercise and training. And in Honduras, we're all in helping save lives. We're helping assess long term needs. But okay, we come off the stage, who's going to help people of Honduras with a long term bridges, and, and that's where the UN and other organizations doo doo come into play. But often, there are gaps. And you do hear about it years later, hey, we never quite fully recovered. In this country, that country, and we needed help and, and the focus moved on to the next crisis. So I know a lot of people are thinking about that. But it is, it is a concern, particularly if you're in Syria or Turkey,
Blythe Brumleve:
31:00
and probably no real right answer for any one of these locations on when to when to exit. And when that when that I guess, yes, is appropriate to make or estimation is appropriate to make. Now as as you know, we learn more about these disasters, and we respond to them, I imagine, you know that we get a little bit better at responding to them after each time. What do you think will be some of the lessons that we'll come away with? Or is it still too early to tell front from the Turkey and Syria situation?
Craig Faller:
31:33
I think it's too early to tell in this particular situation focused or focused on the immediate needs of the day and building that long term rebuilding plan that that's going to be essential for the future. So people have hope they need to see that progress. But I know that my own experience in Haiti and Central America, from the day that disaster struck, we have folks assigned to do lessons learned, what worked, what didn't work, what would we do differently? So does USAID bureau of Humanitarian Affairs, they really focus on that, and then we collate those lessons learned, and we roll them into a training program? Maybe you through a tabletop exercises, seminars, discussions, so we do a lot of work in that area. So that next time we're more prepared better and not caught? Unaware? Not ready. So things are pre staged, ready to go?
Blythe Brumleve:
32:39
From a civilian aspect? And I'm not sure if you have the answer to this question. But I was just thinking of, well, what could you know, regular person like me, or maybe a regular person that's listening to this episode? If they could offer any kind of help? Is it you know, charitable donations? Is it volunteering time? What What would you recommend to folks who see something like this and want to help but don't know where to go?
Craig Faller:
33:03
The UN website has a donate, there's a place to go for donation. So I would start there, I would look at some of the really good non government organizations world hope is one I've mentioned previously, that I do work in this the International Red Cross. I think that donation of financial donation can then be directed by the the professionals that are out there that best no need to know where the resources need to go, then, I mean, if you do have the time volunteering with one of these organizations that focuses on disaster relief is important.
Blythe Brumleve:
33:46
And then, you know, just final last couple of questions, is there anything else that you know, I should have asked but wasn't smart enough to and that you think is important to highlight on?
Craig Faller:
33:57
No, your questions are great, very smart on this and you asked all the right questions. So I, I look back on 38 years in the military. And I mentioned I love the Navy, I love the military, you better if you stay that long. You better love what you do. And it really did. And it was the mission. It was the people think of the military. We think that hard power bombs bullets, ships, tanks and fist Well, the US military, we can bring it and that the goal of all that hard power is to deter wars, but I was really, really, really inspired by the other side the handshake. The term often uses soft power, but I think of it as a handshake and outstretched hand or the US military in support of an international disaster like what I saw in Indonesia for the big huge tsunami and aftermath and in Haiti most recently 2021 in Central America, in 2020. comes in and in offers the side of Some people, the loving side, they outstretched hand the hope that assistance in a natural disaster. And that's really one of the things that inspired me cross my entire career. And that's one of the really fun excited about being involved with pay cargo. So this is a company that is an innovative startup there, they're making a difference, they are really working hard to modernize and innovate in the cargo arena. So that companies can benefit from more efficiency, the value of the data transfer and the record keeping and Faster Payments. It's been exciting.
Blythe Brumleve:
35:44
Well said, and I think that in times of despair, looking for the helpers is usually where you'll find the most hope. And so I appreciate you sharing your perspective and especially when we're paid cargo is trying to help in that regard of helping these containers and this cargo get loosened up much more quickly so we can get in the hands of the people who need it the most so Admiral, you know, where can folks follow more of your work, pay cargo, all that good stuff.
Craig Faller:
36:12
Right? Probably be hard to follow me since I've the bid. Challenge I love. I love communicating and connecting but I it's really hard to follow me but pay cargo there's great website, just pa ye capital car G one word and they do a super job updating it and keeping people informed about what they offer, what they're innovating and how they're moving things forward. So that's a great place to go.
Blythe Brumleve:
36:43
Absolutely. And we will link to pay cargo in the show notes just to make it easy for everyone. But Admiral appreciate your time, and especially your experience and obviously all of the service that you've given not only to the United States, but to the rest of the world. So we appreciate your time.
Craig Faller:
36:57
Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity to have a conversation today. It's been a lot of fun and very, very important topic. Logistics is for professionals.
Blythe Brumleve:
37:06
Absolutely because everything is logistics not to plug the podcast name but that's what we're talking about. I hope you enjoy this episode of everything is logistics, a podcast for the thinkers and freight telling the stories behind how your favorite stuff and people get from point A to B. If you liked this episode, do me a favor and sign up for our newsletter. I know what you're probably thinking, oh God, another newsletter. But it's the easiest way to stay updated when new episodes are released. Plus, we drop a lot of gems in that email to help the one person marketing team and folks like yourself who are probably wearing a lot of hats at work in order to help you navigate this digital world a little bit easier. You could find that email signup link along with our socials in past episodes. Over at everything is logistics.com And until next time, I'm Blythe and go Jags
